Saturday, January 24, 2009

RE: RESPONSE TO BJONERUD RE: COMMUNICATIONS AT SCSCAI BOARD MEETINGS

Gee, I'm confused is this "Bjonerud The King Maker" or "Bjonerud The Sound Engineer"? If Bojonerud is in complete charge of our Sun City governance & operations an Election isn't really necessary. Just kidding Stan's thinking is why Change is so important.
Think for yourself, VOTE for Change!
Dwain Kramzar
-----Original Message-----
From: Bernard Silver [mailto:silverinvegas@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 4:53 PM
To: sbj4; ALLAN BAER; KEN CAROCCIA; RICHARD POST; BOB ROBEY; DAVID STEINMAN; RON WINKEL; SC-SCOOP; BEN BENNET; TOM BRENNAN; PAUL CALLAGHAN; BILL CANTOR; ANNALOU CLIFTON; ELI CYNGISER; PATTY DAINO; DON GELBMAN; BILL GOSSMAN; SY & HERMAINE HINDEN; KAY HUNT; SYBIL KOPP; DWAIN KRAMZAR; BILL KRANE; BOB & CAROL KUGLER; ELLINORE McDONALD; BOB PASSMONICK; ROCHELLE PHILLIPS; NORMAN PRESS; LIZ ROBERTS; NADINE & WALT ROBETOR; GERALD ROTH; FRED SCHAEFER; BERNARD SILVER; EDMOND STEPHENSON; MURRAY WAKS; STORRS WARINER
Subject: RESPONSE TO BJONERUD RE: COMMUNICATIONS AT SCSCAI BOARD MEETINGS

Stan Bjonerud
Lets be clear on this.
1. I assisted Fred Schaefer who as a graduate electrical and mechanical engineer knows far more about sound systems than will ever know.
2. At the time the system that you see, i.e., the combination desk mounted microphone and speakers were purchased and installed they functioned very well compared to what they replaced.
3. Since then, there has been considerable 'monkey-diddling' with the rest of the components that make up the "sound system" and I strongly suspect that other links in the chain may have been incompatible with the original system after Fred Schaefer tuned it up.
4. On several occasions when I was present and the staff had installed individual microphones, they didn't function because it was found that the batteries needed replacing.
this is why I was clear that whatever is done needs to be clearly documented with an "OPERATING PROCEDURE" and only qualified personnel should be doing the installing and check out before the meeting.
5. Several of the existing units were repaired by me because of damages incurred either by mishandling during installation or by users.
6. Yes Stan as you have stated "We will learn more later on what will work, but believe, from what I have heard, there is a good solution out there" Of course there is, and it should not have taken so long for our Administration to awaken to the problem and the need for remedial action.
Now we need a review by a couple of Sun City experienced engineers followed up with a written specification that may be used for competitive bids. After that we need the other necessaties such as only qualified persons supervising the installations per a SOP, and noting the equipment condition and performance in a permanent log book.
These are facts that cannot be belittled by someone like you who is not familiar with the fine work that Fred Shaefer did.
I was merely his companion\sidekick and general helper under his direction. Be advised that Fred is the Engineer at his church, and there all of the the systems are maintained and function as designed.
By The way Stan, can you explain why the IT Committee is remiss in updating the graphical presentations shown on the Sun City web site for the monthly progress of the various areas shown in the 2009 Budget? Right now the presentation only goes through September -- its 3 months out of phase or late.
Bernard Silver
============================


sbj4 <sbj4@cox.net> wrote:
Bernard:
Point of interest learned yesterday is that the microphone system you and Fred specified 5 – 6 years ago and installed in not compatible to the speaker sound system that existed and still does exist. What you installed looked great and had some fine bells and whistles, but it was wrong. Why would we want to go down that route again?
Don’t pat yourself on the back publically as you are putting your foot in your mouth. I suggest you leave well enough alone for now.
We will learn more later on what will work, but believe, from what I have heard, there is a good solution out there.
Stan Bjonerud
From: Bernard Silver [mailto:silverinvegas@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 1:38 PM
To: STAN BJONERUD; SALLY &amp; DONALD BOGOLUB
Subject: COMMUNICATIONS AT SCSCAI BOARD MEETINGS
Norman Press.
I do not agree with you that the poor quality sound systems in our Sun City is directly traceable to money spent.
During the over 12 years that we have lived here and particularly during the over 8 years that I was on the Properties Committee i made some cogent observations such as:
At the very top of Management of our well over $65,000,000 of facilities we have never had anyone with any practical concepts of Purchasing and Preventative Maintenance. The attitude that was inherited from Del Webb was simple -- IF ITS BROKEN REPLACE IT.
There is however a vast difference between being BROKEN & NOT PERFORMING PER THE REQUIREMENTS OR THE SPECIFICATIONS.
The sound systems that we are familiar with must be considered precisely for what they. They are a relatively simple collection of components that when connected and powered should serve the purpose intended. For example, the average member sees a speaker with a microphone -- there may be at times as many as 13 microphones connected as at a Board Meeting by lots of cables, into a control module. From, in this case, the control module, the signal passes to an amplifier in a back room at the Desert Vista and from there it the amplified signal is distributed via a lot of wiring to what we affectionately refer to as loud speakers. Add to this a control switch with a rheostat so that as desired, the various loud speakers may be turned on or off and the volume controlled and you now have a very general picture of our current "Sound System" at Desert Vista.
It should be obvious that the sound system is similar to a chain. it is only as strong as its weakest link. With a damaged component such as a microphone, a cable, or an incorrect setting on a control switch, etc, what should be working well fails to perform. REPLACING THE EQUIPMENT IS NOT NECESSARILY THE SOLUTION.
Another one of our SCSCAI self induced problems is that we are often prone to assign a task to an person who has a technical background less than what is needed for performance. Then the word goes out that it is the equipment that is at fault. It must be noted that the microphenes used at Board Meetings while relatively rugged are easily damaged with mishandling. A suitable storage and carrying case was purchased and it should be used.
Yes! I have a solution.
1. Have a consultation with an expert such as Fred Schaefer and have him and another Electrical Engineer review the system, get it set up and checked out. Then, and this is the important part, have the two engineers agree on a WRITTEN STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE covering all of the necessary control settings, etc, etc, and the check out of the equipment at least 1 hour prior to unintended usage. ONLY THOSE PERSONNEL who have been checked out by one or both engineers should be the lead person performing a sound system set up. Each time a sound system is set up and checked out, the lead person should enter into a permanent log book the status of all components, noting any anomalies.
In my professional life, dealing with some very easily aggravated chemicals and electrical components, this type of elementary training served well to save time, equipment and above all prevent accidents while getting the job done. It is not reasonable to just place a hat on an untrained person, give him a title and expect performance.
Of course, as Mr.Post our President has stated, he is bringing in an outside expert and one doesn't have to be too bright to know where that will lead ---- $$$$$$ --- and then another round of performance degradation.
Bernard Silver
===============================


Norman Press <nnpp@cox.net> wrote:
Don,
I have to agree with you.....
Friday evening I attended temple services.
The major complaint of the congregation was the poor sound from the audio system.
Words sound muffled like in a tunnel. Speakers had to hold the microphones practically in their mouths and then we could hardly hear them.
I have attended many lectures and have been in numerous places similar to our facilities but never have I heard such a poor sound system.
I would like to include the Starbright theater which has the worst sound system ever devised.
It all comes down to MONEY. Regardless of price there is quality and there is true quality unfortunately Del Webb left us with poor quality.
In order to improve the system it would require a sound engineer not a Suncity committee or individual who professes the knowledge necessary to waste more money on a system that was poor to begin with.
But I am sure we will continue to waste more money like we do on all the projects to satisfy the ego of some rank amateur.
Norman Press
----- Original Message -----
From: drgtrustpl
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:55 AM
Subject: [SC-SCOOP] Re: COMMUNICATIONS AT SCSCAI BOARD MEETINGS
Fred:
Thank you for responding. I am not sure why we do so many things the
hard way and hope to be able to change some of that. I have never
complained about our system in terms of being hearing impaired. I
never felt a need to since I realized that our system was bad at the
source and TV ears type technology wasn't going to help.

If I get on the Board I hope to make sure the problem is solved once
and for all and know whete to look for guidance. If I don't get
elected I will consider bringing an ADA complaint so that we can
accomplish the same thing.

We don't need law suits or even federal law to solve our problems
just a little common sense. You and Silver had a system installed
which depended upon reasonable use. We have not always had
reasonable users. I think the upgrade you talk about can get us to
the latest technology and real leadership at the Board/Administration
level can keep us there.
Don Gelbman


--- In SC-SCOOP@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Schaefer" <s708783@...> wrote:
>
> Gentlemen FYI: Thank you for your interest in the Desert Vista
sound system.
> The system as installed is fine, it does need upgrading. When
installed several
> years ago, manuals and procedures were provided and personnel given
instructions.
> It is obvious there was no follow-up or maintenance performed. The
members
> of the board need instruction on use as members leave and new
replace them.
> Specific recommendations are available. As usual, this matter has
not been
> handled well.
>
> As to current FCC and ADA regulations: FCC has changed frequency
allocations
> on wireless equipment. I do not know whether we are in compliance.
Fines are
> possible if we are not. ADA regulations require that a yearly
report is
> required on sound levels. There is not, to my knowledge, any
requirement as
> to the quality of the sound. There is a requirement that equipment
must
> be available to the hearing impaired. This consists of a pocket
sized receiver
> and ear piece. This is a separate wireless system. The input to
this system
> is from the main sound system. If the sound source is poor, the
hearing
> impaired system will be equally unsatisfactory. This information
applies
> to all Association Sound Systems,
>
> As always, I am available,
> Fred Schaefer
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: drgtrustpl
> To: SC-SCOOP@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:11 PM
> Subject: [SC-SCOOP] Re: COMMUNICATIONS AT SCSCAI BOARD MEETINGS
>
>
> Bernie:
> As far as I know Mr. Schaefer has not been asked for anything. I
> talked to him several years ago when he was on the Board and
several
> times lately. What you and he did years ago was probably the
state
> of the art but ADA has changed a lot of things. Fast forward.
>
> Someone in the Association bought a system that is similar to TV
ears
> which many of us are familiar with. Why they didn't also buy the
> services the ADA approved company provide for a system upgrade is
not
> known. We evidently just bought a TV ears type system for the
> hearing impaired.
>
> What I do know is that Mr. Schaefer and Beers both have churches
that
> have great sound. As far as I kow it has nothing to do with TV
ears
> type technology. The fact that any system in accordance with ADA
> rules that is public (like theaters etc.) must be compatible with
TV
> ears technology. Therefore in those days you would be able to use
> you TV ears in any theater. Since my earlier review TV ears
changed
> the frequency they use. Unless you have a compatible frequency
you
> can't use the home TV ears in a theater.
> Don Gelbman
>
> --- In SC-SCOOP@yahoogroups.com, Bernard Silver <silverinvegas@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Don Gelbman.
> >
> > Yes indeed, communications are important.
> >
> > For the benefit of our Board members and the Executive Director
> particularly, I would like to address a problem relating to the
> components of the communication system that they use at the Board
> meetings.
> >
> > I had the privilege several years ago working as an assistant
to
> Fred Schaefer who is a graduate Electrical & Mechanical engineer
in
> the research necessary to select the existing system. I must
> emphasize that what I'm referring to is the individual units that
the
> Directors and staff have on their tables plus the two units that
are
> used by the members to ask questions. I am excluding the overhead
> wiring and speakers and any amplifiers or controls other that the
one
> unit that is usually in front of the Chairman.
> >
> > These units are used in many locations by commercial companies
> and municipalities and have been found to be very satisfactory
when
> used correctly. The individual units have a switch and a light
> showing when the user is transmitting and the sound is
distributed to
> all of the interconnected identical units so that the speaker
within
> is actuated. It is important to turn OFF the switch and the light
> when not transmitting.
> >
> > The microphone, with the added foam rubber hood is very
sensitive
> and works well when it is about 3 finger widths from the speakers
> mouth when talking (transmitting).
> >
> > The microphone on the small diameter flexible cable attached to
> the base unit is relatively fragile, as is its connector into the
> base, and I have personally reinforced several of them at the top
end
> adjacent to the microphone because of damage caused by excessive
> manipulation.
> >
> > When used correctly, the microphone should not be manipulated --

> the entire base should be moved to the one who is talking without
> bending the flexible cable.
> >
> > When purchased originally, these units came with a large soft
> padded on the inside aluminum case for storage and moving. If
used
> this would enhance the integrity and reliability of these units.
> >
> > If there are any questions of a technical nature, I suggest
that
> they be addressed to Fred Schaefer who has been servicing the
sound
> sound system for his church for many years and is very competent
in
> this area. From experience, I should add that addressed politely,
> Fred works for free and is as capable in this field as any
> professional.
> > If there are any flexible cables that need reinforcing, my
> services are also readily available under similar circumstances.
> >
> > In my opinion, it would be appropriate, and prudent, for the
> Executive Director to issue either a copy of this memo, or a
summary
> of it to all users of this equipment. This has been an ongoing
> problem and needs to be addressed continuously as Board members
and
> staff are changed.
> >
> > Bernard Silver
> >
> > =============================================
> >
> >
> > DON GELBMAN <drgtrustpl@> wrote:
> > A SERIOUS PROBLEM THAT MUST BE FIXED NOW
> >
> > I was happy to learn that Mr. Post had done something about the
> poor
> > sound system we have. The first chance I got to use the new
system
> was
> > at the Tuesday Board meeting. Unfortunately it wasn't working
so I
> > don't know how good it may be in solving our communications
problem
> at
> > the Board meetings.
> >
> > Mr. Post said he was going to be meeting with the supplier of
the
> new
> > system and I hope he will let us know how it turned out.
> >
> > There are not too many corporations involved with "Assisted
> Listening
> > Systems" that specialize in the American Disabilities Act
> requirements.
> > The company Mr. Post is dealing with is one of those companies.
If
> > you check out the internet you find that they all talk about
church
> > groups. Mr. Beers and Mr. Schaeffer have both said that their
> churches
> > have a great sound system regardless of the ADA type aides.
That
> tells
> > me that we may be trying to fix a leak in the dam with chewing
gum.
> >
> > Let's hope whatever gets done finally solves a long standing
very
> > unfortunate communications problem. Any resident should and
must be
> > able to attend the Community meetings on an equal basis.
> > Don Gelbman
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bernard Silver
> >
>
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